The spanking debate.

[ajane]

I appreciate everyone who has given me examples. But, I'm going to use Celeste's b/c it is pretty concise and similar to a situation we could have.

Originally Posted by Celeste We spank. We do not spank out of anger...no whacks out of nowhere, that make a kid cringe anytime to come near. Our children are not in any way afraid of us. They are very affectionate with both dh and I. At our house, it goes like this. <Cue spank worthy offense...let's say direct disobedience> "Go to your room" (or the bathroom or guest room, somewhere private). At this point, they know they have done something wrong. How do they know? Because we don't spank for random annoying things they do or for accidents...we spank for direct disobedience, lying, and major disrespect/defiance. Once I get to their room (which may be a few minutes, especially if I am upset...I give myself time to calm down and evaluate what punishment/consequence is appropriate), I ask them what they did to get sent to their room. If they can't tell me, and I really think they didn't hear me when I instructed them, I don't spank. When they can tell me exactly what they did wrong, I know that they understand. I might ask them what the Bible says (like " Children obey your parents"). I spank them. After the spanking, we talk again about why what they did was wrong, they apologize, we hug and kiss and get on with our day. I have noticed a much sweeter attitude in my kids after we deal with the bad behavior and move on, as opposed to ignoring a temper tantrum or giving warnings on end with no follow through in sight. To answer a pp's question, I was 24 when my first was born, and will be 31 in April. My kids are 6,3, and 2 (never spanked). I have my bachelor's in elementary education. And dh has a master's. Not sure if the implication was that young uneducated people tend towards spanking, but I don't think that's the case.

What you described could be something similar that happens in our house, minus the spanking. I don't send the child away to "banish" them as I'm pretty sure you don't either. I do it to provide alone time for us to talk.

oh, and feel free to just ignore me, but I since I'm not in your shoes and don't know your children, I'm just curious if the point would still get across without spanking.

[momtojande]

I think if you looked at my 5 years and however many posts of posting history, I've probably been wildly inconsistent. I've gone back & forth quite a bit over it.

Well, not in one sense. I've never thought that spanking is necessarily evil. I was spanked and certainly never feared or resented my parents. So I've never been on that extreme end of the topic. But as to whether we should in our house, I've wavered.

But:

Originally Posted by mcpforever Kiliki, your example with your 4yo sounds like my youngest. I think that child seriously desires someone to place limits for him and MAKE him stick to them, expecially when you realize that the unhappiness that lasts for 20-30 minutes during all of the time that was spent attempting to rationalize, coax, coerce, listen, give space, and understand gets resolved in a 3 second spanking and 30 second "recovery."

This has been my experience of the one place spanking has in our house. DS, particularly around age 3-4, just seemed to need, like you said, for us to MAKE him follow the rules. Specifically, that he is to be quiet and hold reasonably still in time out. He would go into an absolute rage at being in time out. I could tell him not to, but couldn't make him listen. And yes, I had bent over backwards trying to make him see it as a positive "cooling off" time. I even recall using the phrase "time in". I first tried redirecting him before even doing a time out. I tried reasoning with him, teaching him to express his feelings in healthy ways, was mildly obsessed with making sure he slept adequately and ate healthily, tried to model positive ways of dealing with stress, etc., etc., etc. I did those things. And they certainly all have their effect and I still believe wholeheartedly in all of that. And for my daughter, that is enough. She doesn't have any extra...I can't think of the right word. Defiance? Challenge? For DS though, he just refused to respond in the textbook manner. (It's like he didn't even bother to read those parenting books! Or even attend any lectures.)

The one thing that worked was, telling him that if he kicked the walls & doors during time out he would get spanked. One spank for every kick. Open hand, on a clothed bottom. He tested that limit maybe the first 2-3 times I tried it, and occasionally afterwards, and learned that it was absolute. It was what he needed. Once he knew he had to calm down and control himself, he suddenly acquired that skill.

And I think he was much better off for it! Because he got spanked a few times, he learned how to have a quiet, short time out to calm himself down and change his behavior. Before that, if he got a time out, it turned into extended rage, misery, drama.

If my daughter was an only child, I could probably post here about how spanking is never necessary, and how there are always better ways. If my son was an only child, I might think I'm an idiot who can't get those lovely gentle parenting techniques to work.

[~happy2Bamommy~]

Originally Posted by ajane Learn something new every day, right? Aha! My fav smiley of all. I can't remember if it was you or Sally who first introduced it.

Well, technically it was Leslie/JoyfulTieDyes

I made a comment once about locking a thread because of the train wreck I knew was coming and she gave me that one. I've saved it to my photobucket

[~happy2Bamommy~]

Originally Posted by momtojande I think if you looked at my 5 years and however many posts of posting history, I've probably been wildly inconsistent. I've gone back & forth quite a bit over it. Well, not in one sense. I've never thought that spanking is necessarily evil. I was spanked and certainly never feared or resented my parents. So I've never been on that extreme end of the topic. But as to whether we should in our house, I've wavered. But: This has been my experience of the one place spanking has in our house. DS, particularly around age 3-4, just seemed to need, like you said, for us to MAKE him follow the rules. Specifically, that he is to be quiet and hold reasonably still in time out. He would go into an absolute rage at being in time out. I could tell him not to, but couldn't make him listen. And yes, I had bent over backwards trying to make him see it as a positive "cooling off" time. I even recall using the phrase "time in". I first tried redirecting him before even doing a time out. I tried reasoning with him, teaching him to express his feelings in healthy ways, was mildly obsessed with making sure he slept adequately and ate healthily, tried to model positive ways of dealing with stress, etc., etc., etc. I did those things. And they certainly all have their effect and I still believe wholeheartedly in all of that. And for my daughter, that is enough. She doesn't have any extra...I can't think of the right word. Defiance? Challenge? For DS though, he just refused to respond in the textbook manner. (It's like he didn't even bother to read those parenting books! Or even attend any lectures.) The one thing that worked was, telling him that if he kicked the walls & doors during time out he would get spanked. One spank for every kick. Open hand, on a clothed bottom. He tested that limit maybe the first 2-3 times I tried it, and occasionally afterwards, and learned that it was absolute. It was what he needed. Once he knew he had to calm down and control himself, he suddenly acquired that skill. And I think he was much better off for it! Because he got spanked a few times, he learned how to have a quiet, short time out to calm himself down and change his behavior. Before that, if he got a time out, it turned into extended rage, misery, drama. If my daughter was an only child, I could probably post here about how spanking is never necessary, and how there are always better ways. If my son was an only child, I might think I'm an idiot who can't get those lovely gentle parenting techniques to work.

I loved the bolded. SO very true!

I have five children and it amazes me at how vastly different kids can be! My 6 year old is angelic. Super sweet kid that literally is as close to perfect as a kid could possibly be. My 4 year old is not angelic The 2 year old is a sassy kiddo that puts our teens to shame but she isn't mean or rude (yet lol)

[jam's mum]

I believe that spanking can work in particular families and with particular people, especially if they're principled about it and have obviously thought a great deal about it (like the ladies here do and have).

My personal experience with spanking has led me to distrust it, and especially to distrust my ability to use it appropriately.

As a child I was spanked sometimes out of anger, and sometimes out of principle. I was spanked with the flat of my parents' hand, with a hairbrush and a wooden spoon, I was slapped across the face, and threatened with violence - "I will beat you black and blue", "I'll beat you til you bleed", etc. They never did beat us til we bruised or bled - but it was properly terrifying.

We were raised to be obedient first time as well. As a daughter, I think that was a mistake on my parents' part that backfired spectacularly, and as a parent, I don't want my daughter to have obedience be her first instinct. I want her to be scared of the things I'm scared of for her, not scared of me.

I catch myself getting angry with this tiny person for disobeying, and I catch myself wanting to punish her. And it frightens me.

I don't think my parents were abusive. But I don't want to emulate their parenting.

[lookatreestar]

Originally Posted by ~happy2Bamommy~ I loved the bolded. SO very true! I have five children and it amazes me at how vastly different kids can be! My 6 year old is angelic. Super sweet kid that literally is as close to perfect as a kid could possibly be. My 4 year old is not angelic The 2 year old is a sassy kiddo that puts our teens to shame but she isn't mean or rude (yet lol)

Lmao, I thought I was the best gentle/ap parent around until my ds was born. he is always pushing the limits. (Which I really think is payback because I was the same way as a kid- I was actually worse lol)

[~happy2Bamommy~]

Originally Posted by jam's mum I believe that spanking can work in particular families and with particular people, especially if they're principled about it and have obviously thought a great deal about it (like the ladies here do and have). My personal experience with spanking has led me to distrust it, and especially to distrust my ability to use it appropriately. As a child I was spanked sometimes out of anger, and sometimes out of principle. I was spanked with the flat of my parents' hand, with a hairbrush and a wooden spoon, I was slapped across the face, and threatened with violence - "I will beat you black and blue", "I'll beat you til you bleed", etc. They never did beat us til we bruised or bled - but it was properly terrifying. We were raised to be obedient first time as well. As a daughter, I think that was a mistake on my parents' part that backfired spectacularly, and as a parent, I don't want my daughter to have obedience be her first instinct. I want her to be scared of the things I'm scared of for her, not scared of me. I catch myself getting angry with this tiny person for disobeying, and I catch myself wanting to punish her. And it frightens me. I don't think my parents were abusive. But I don't want to emulate their parenting.

I know you said you don't think your parents were abusive but I really do think what you described is physical ( slapping you in the face) and mental/emotional (threatening bodily harm) abuse

Kids do disobey. (I actually think they should disobey!) but how we respond to them is up to us. I have a friend that discussed having the same type of fear you did. It is a very valid fear I think. I'll tell you what I told her, take a class or two (or three!) on parenting. They are often free and you really will come away feeling recharged and more in control of your own emotions/ reactions when a child disobeys. I'm sure you will do what is best for your child. Just realizing that you have a fear (done!) and taking steps to put those fears to rest will be a great thing for you. Your post on this site really convey that you are an excellent mama! (as best I can tell in cyberland anyway lol)

[jam's mum]

Originally Posted by ~happy2Bamommy~ I know you said you don't think your parents were abusive but I really do think what you described is physical ( slapping you in the face) and mental/emotional (threatening bodily harm) abuse Kids do disobey. (I actually think they should disobey!) but how we respond to them is up to us. I have a friend that discussed having the same type of fear you did. It is a very valid fear I think. I'll tell you what I told her, take a class or two (or three!) on parenting. They are often free and you really will come away feeling recharged and more in control of your own emotions/ reactions when a child disobeys. I'm sure you will do what is best for your child. Just realizing that you have a fear (done!) and taking steps to put those fears to rest will be a great thing for you. Your post on this site really convey that you are an excellent mama! (as best I can tell in cyberland anyway lol)

I welled up when I read your response. Thank you so much for your kindness .

[waterisntsomething]

Originally Posted by Kiliki LOL is this a serious response??? It's so sarcastic, I actually can't tell if you are trying to be helpful. I actually don't care what any "expert" on anything says. Truly. I've had dogs and raised and trained them my whole life. Never had an issue, and never needed (or cared) to read a book on it. I also don't think animals are equal to humans, so I don't care what people think is ok for animals, and how that compares to what is socially acceptable for raising kids. Let's not forget we have crazy stories about dolphins getting fake tails so they can survive while poor PEOPLE die all the time b/c they can't afford necessary life saving treatments. THAT is sad. I'd rather shoot the dolphin, and save the human. It's pretty clear that people have their priorities severely mixed up when it comes to animals vs. humans. So the comparison does nothing for me.

I find that very sad. Don't get me wrong, I would donate to a charity to support starving children over animals any day of the week, but I don't think humans are above anything in existance...not animals or rocks or water or stars. We are all simply existing and experiencing that existance.

"We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals... In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendour and travail of the earth."

Henry Beston

[mjg2043]

This has turned into a strange thread. Like many things on here I am always perplexed why people care how others choose to parent. Its not like we are going to change our minds. I've never had the - OMG a random person on an internet website about cloth diapers said I should/shouldn't do something so I better totally reevaluate my parenting - moment.

I don't understand the defensiveness, but I guess I just have a position on things and let others choose their own.