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Old 01-19-2009, 02:43 PM   #21
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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Originally Posted by JonsMommy View Post
I think the answer is different for different vaccines.

One one side is something like polio -- which was something my parents grew up in fear of, in an era with proper sanitation, plenty of food, etc. The vaccine ended the disease. Doing away with the polio vaccine IMO would be a terrible mistake.

On the other side is something like chicken pox. The consequences would be that more kids would get chicken pox. The end. No big tragedy, just an inconvenience for a week or so (especially for families where both parents work). Possibly a net gain, since I think it's silly that a chickenpox vaccine given to a toddler wears off at the age when chickenpox itself becomes a little more dangerous.

I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer to vaccines. I also think that if they concentrated on only giving only those most vital vaccines (like polio, or IMO pertussis), then there would probably be less backlash and resistance to vaccines. (My mother was appalled when she saw how many vaccines have been added to the schedule since we were young.)



Yeah, but would she also say the same about carseats? ("We never used carseats and we were just fine.") That's not really good evidence of anything.
ITA!! I think the carseat analogy is great. It's easy for us to say now that it wouldn't have much of an effect (particularly since the majority of kids are vaxed--that protects unvaxed kids, too), but we don't have any proof to back it up.

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Old 01-19-2009, 02:55 PM   #22
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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Yeah, but would she also say the same about carseats? ("We never used carseats and we were just fine.") That's not really good evidence of anything.
There are no negative possibilities with carseats. And my comment was only in response to the pp who mentioned her grandparents age where people were apparently dying left and right of everything. I was simply saying that depends on who you ask.
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Old 01-19-2009, 03:01 PM   #23
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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Thanks for the reminder eco-baby. I have another question. For those of you who do not vax, will you vax later on as the risks become greater should they contract the disease or not at all?
The only vaccines I was remotely considering were Tetanus for both genders, Mumps for a son, and Rubella for a daughter. All of which I wouldn't give until they were in high school. *Maybe* middle school on the Tetanus, but unlikely. Currently I've decided against Tetanus once again (as the treatment for the toxin is the exact same whether you've been vaccinated against it or not). And with the end of seperate MMR doses, we will not be getting it for our children. They can make that decision themselves. We'll discuss it with them between 16-18 (if it hasn't come up earlier, which I'm sure it will), and let them do their own research and decide for themselves. The Measles vaccine is one I never want my children to have. I think vaccinating adults makes 100 times more sense than vaccinating infants anyways.
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We don't vaccinate, we kept our sons intact, we use cloth diapers, we co-sleep, we extended RF, we breastfeed, but we watch too much tv and I totally dig plastic! Everyone has their issues, lol.
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Old 01-19-2009, 03:16 PM   #24
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

As usual, Tiffany and Shannon have said everything I could possibly think of MUCH better than I could ever say it!
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Old 01-19-2009, 06:31 PM   #25
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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I'm torn, just as I have been for a long time on vaccines. There are many 3rd world countries who don't routinely vaccinate and they ARE having a lot of problems and deaths due to diseases we here in the US don't think much about because we have "group immunity" to them. If we all stopped vaccinating, it's possible that we would be fine because our standard of health and information has risen (and is generally higher than 3rd world countries are) - but I do believe it's quite a reality that many of those diseases would make a comeback too. This is why I'm still torn on the subject...

Actually if you clicked on the links in my posts you would see that the numbers for deaths of these diseases in the US pre-vaccine was roughly the same as it is now. In fact a good portion of my post dealt with just this issue. There is no comparison between thrid world countries and the US, and vaccines are not the reason. You cannot compare a country where the majority of the population have access to clean water, sanitary living conditions, adequate food and proper medical care to a country where the majority of people are starving, drinking water that animals bathe in, and have absolutely no access to medical care. Places where on top of everything else diseases like HIV are rampant. Of course they are dieing of measels, it has nothing to do with the vaccine, it has to do with living conditions. Please take some time to actually look at the statistics. The situations are not comparable.
here is a graph set, again
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html

As for pertusis, considering immunity to pertusis wanes in less than 5 yrs, the vaccine is at best 70% effective and pertusis is still considered endemic in the US I can't see why we are worried about it making a "comeback". It never left. The CDC would like us to believe that the most recent outbreaks are a result of people not vaccinating, but the patterns are the same as they have always been. It just isn't an effective vaccine.

For polio, please do the research. The story is not as simple as people think it is.

Here is what the CDC has to say about polio
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin.../polio-508.pdf


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The response to poliovirus infection is highly variable and has been categorized on the basis of the severity of clinical presentation. Up to 95% of all polio infections are inapparent or asymptomatic. Estimates of the ratio of inapparent to paralytic illness vary from 50:1 to 1,000:1 (usually 200:1). Infected persons without symptoms shed virus in the stool and are able to transmit the virus to others. Approximately 4%8% of polio infections consist of a minor, nonspecific illness without clinical or laboratory evidence of central nervous system invasion. This clinical presentation is known as abortive poliomyelitis, and is characterized by complete recovery in less than a week. Three syndromes observed with this form of poliovirus infection are upper respiratory tract infection (sore throat and fever), gastrointestinal disturbances (nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, constipation or, rarely, diarrhea), and influenza-like illness. These syndromes are indistinguishable from other viral illnesses. Nonparalytic aseptic meningitis (symptoms of stiffness of the neck, back, and/or legs), usually following several days after a prodrome similar to that of minor illness, occurs in 1%2% of polio infections. Increased or abnormal sensations can also occur. Typically these symptoms will last from 2 to 10 days, followed by complete recovery. Fewer than 1% of all polio infections result in flaccid paralysis. Paralytic symptoms generally begin 1 to 10 days after prodromal symptoms and progress for 2 to 3 days. Generally, no further paralysis occurs after the temperature returns to normal. The prodrome may be biphasic, especially in children, with initial minor symptoms separated by a 1- to 7-day period from more major symptoms. Additional prodromal signs and symptoms can include a loss of superficial reflexes, initially increased deep tendon reflexes and severe muscle aches and spasms in the limbs or back. The illness progresses to flaccid paralysis with diminished deep tendon reflexes, reaches a plateau without change for days to weeks, and is usually asymmetrical. Strength then begins to return. Patients do not experience sensory losses or changes in cognition. Many persons with paralytic poliomyelitis recover completely and, in most, muscle function returns to some degree. Weakness or paralysis still present 12 months after onset is usually permanent.
102
Poliomyelitis
Paralytic polio is classified into three types, depending on the level of involvement. Spinal polio is most common, and during 19691979, accounted for 79% of paralytic cases. It is characterized by asymmetric paralysis that most often involves the legs. Bulbar polio leads to weakness of muscles innervated by cranial nerves and accounted for 2% of cases during this period. Bulbospinal polio, a combination of bulbar and spinal paralysis, accounted for 19% of cases. The death-to-case ratio for paralytic polio is generally 2%5% among children and up to 15%30% for adults (depending on age). It increases to 25%75% with bulbar involvement.
The "polio outbreak" here in the US falls under intense scrutiny when these numbers are applied. It becomes even more concerning when considering DDT poisoning (DDT is a chemical pesticide used during the time of the "polio outbreak" and then banned around the time of the vaccine) looks very much the same as paralytic polio. At the time polio was diagnosed simply by symptoms, not by any lab testing, a change to normal protcol, and something that was changed again after the vaccine was introduced. Many of the more famous cases of paralytic polio were later proven to be DDT poisoning or Guelian Barre, not polio at all.

more polio links
http://www.polioeradication.org/casecount.asp
http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f7...olio/?start=20
http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxin...des_polio.html

The fact is we would not know if polio was still active in the US as we no longer test for it.
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:52 PM   #26
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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I just wanted to address that, because it's such a common notion that doctors are making all kinds of $ off children's vaccinations. They DON'T. Actually it would be far cheaper for them to stop vaccinations all together. I think something like 1 out of every 10 doctors offices are considering pulling vaccines because it's just too expensive.
One of the pediatrician in our ped's office told me he got paid for every vaccine given.
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:17 PM   #27
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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You cannot compare a country where the majority of the population have access to clean water, sanitary living conditions, adequate food and proper medical care to a country where the majority of people are starving, drinking water that animals bathe in, and have absolutely no access to medical care. Places where on top of everything else diseases like HIV are rampant. Of course they are dieing of measels, it has nothing to do with the vaccine, it has to do with living conditions.
I understand that - and I did say that in my statement. But like a PP said, what would happen if one of those people from the third world country who IS carrying this disease ends up here in the US amongst a group of unvaccinated people? Or what if an uneducated and/or unvaccinated person visits one of those countries and brings a disease back?

I selectively vax currently (still doing my own investigations), so I wouldn't say I am "on" either side since I understand the reasons behind both. Just posing questions!
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:26 PM   #28
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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I understand that - and I did say that in my statement. But like a PP said, what would happen if one of those people from the third world country who IS carrying this disease ends up here in the US amongst a group of unvaccinated people? Or what if an uneducated and/or unvaccinated person visits one of those countries and brings a disease back?

I selectively vax currently (still doing my own investigations), so I wouldn't say I am "on" either side since I understand the reasons behind both. Just posing questions!
The same thing that would happen if you got it from your neighbor. It's not the diseases that are different, it's your living conditions, immune system, etc.
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:15 AM   #29
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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Originally Posted by nethridge View Post
I just wanted to address that, because it's such a common notion that doctors are making all kinds of $ off children's vaccinations. They DON'T. Actually it would be far cheaper for them to stop vaccinations all together. I think something like 1 out of every 10 doctors offices are considering pulling vaccines because it's just too expensive.
Here is an artical taken from Yahoo:
"About one in 10 doctors who vaccinate privately insured children are considering dropping that service largely because they are losing money when they do it, according to a new survey.

A second survey revealed startling differences between what doctors pay for vaccines and what private health insurers reimburse: For example, one in 10 doctors lost money on one recommended infant vaccine, but others made almost $40 per dose on the same shot.

The survey was revealing even to some doctors. "Many physicians really weren't aware and that they were getting reimbursed so little," said Dr. Gary Freed of the University of Michigan, a co-author of both articles published in the December issue of the journal Pediatrics.

The studies are the first to attach numbers to doctors' long-simmering complaints that they are only breaking even or even losing money when they give shots.

"It's a pleasure to see a real study to show we're not just making this up," said Dr. Herschel Lessin, a pediatrician in Hopewell Junction, N.Y. who said his practice's spending on vaccines has more than doubled from 2006 to 2007.

Experts say there's no evidence that significant numbers of doctors are quitting the vaccination business yet because of financial concerns.

But health officials are worried. Reimbursement concerns were behind an exodus of doctors from vaccine programs in the 1980s, which contributed to a terrible resurgence of measles in 1989-91 that caused 11,000 hospitalizations and 123 deaths."


For the record, I don't vax.
Okay, even if some do not make money, isn't it funny how it STILL boils down to money? Oh they are losing money so let's drop those "life saving" vaccines that everyone should have.
It still then makes me because if they are truly interested in "eradicating" all these "horrible" diseases then should money matter, whether it is being lost or not??

[not aimed directly at you poster, just the medical community in general ]


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One of the pediatrician in our ped's office told me he got paid for every vaccine given.
Our former pediatrician made money as well.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:31 PM   #30
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Re: What would happen if we (in general) stopped giving vaccines?

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Originally Posted by seeinstarrz View Post
I understand that - and I did say that in my statement. But like a PP said, what would happen if one of those people from the third world country who IS carrying this disease ends up here in the US amongst a group of unvaccinated people? Or what if an uneducated and/or unvaccinated person visits one of those countries and brings a disease back?

I selectively vax currently (still doing my own investigations), so I wouldn't say I am "on" either side since I understand the reasons behind both. Just posing questions!
I don't think I quite understand what you are asking? Why would measels brought back from Africa be any diffrent than measels caught here in the US? It's still measels. It is the living conditions of the people in the country that effect the death rates of these diseases. The numbers would look the same as on the graphs I have posted. There is no reason to believe that the diseases would be any more dangerous now than they were before the vaccines were brought on the market. In fact they should be less dangerous as our living conditions have continued to improve. We now have even better healthcare, more access to clean water, and an even better access to food.
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