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Old 02-01-2013, 08:02 PM   #21
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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A vaccinated child can spread diseases just as easily (and sometimes more easily) than an unvaccinated child. Vaccines, even if given to 100% of the population, do not protect everyone. It is not my responsibility as a parent to protect everyone else's child, it is my responsibility to make the best healthcare decisions I can for MY child(ren) and that includes NOT vaccinating them when the vaccines would cause them physical harm. I don't take my children out in public when they are sick, not even to the ped's office. Why expose them to all kinds of other things when their immune systems are already working hard?

But, that's not the point - the point is that doctors offices can refuse to see patients if they don't adhere to office policies, but refusing to follow a doctor's advice does not mean that a parent is abusive, neglectful, or putting their child and every other child on the planet at risk. Sometimes doctors and parents disagree, sometimes doctors are wrong, and sometimes parents are wrong. The long, drawn-out refusal forms that have come into play recently are ridiculous and dangerous, IMO. Have you read one?
Yes I have read the forms, and I have even signed a few. I also have refused to follow doctor's orders on a number of occasions, and I would never call a parent abusive or neglectful for doing so. We all love and want what is best for our children, and there will always be differing views. For example, one parent sees giving an antibiotic as harmful, with greater consequence; the other sees withholding the antibiotic as harmful, with greater consequence. Same could be said for vaccines.

My main point was that the decision to not vaccinate has the potential to affect other people, whereas refusing antibiotics does not have that same potential. Sure, a vaccinated child can spread disease, and I understand vaccines are not 100% effective. I understand there are risks involved with vaccinating, just as there are risks involved with not vaccinating. Believe me, I have spent years researching this stuff. But the science tells us that there is much more vaccine preventable disease flying around when vaccinated rates drop below a certain percentage (that percentage varies from disease to disease). So yes, it is a decision you make for your child, but it is a decision that does not begin and end with your child.....there are societal implications there, as well. That said, I sincerely respect the decisions other parents make for their children, even if it differs from mine

I am glad you keep your child home when they are sick. But children can be infectious before symptoms start, and what may seem like a mild cold may be something more serious. Do you honestly keep your child quarantined for every sniffle? From the day before onset until it is completely gone?
I am sorry, I don't want to turn this into a debate. And I am trying to bite my tongue. It is just a really sensitive topic for me right now because a friend of mine has spent the last week at Childrens Hospital in Minneapolis while her 6 week old baby is fighting for his life with confirmed pertussis. They rarely left the house and have not been around anyone sick (that they know of); her son likely picked it up at his 2 mo well visit or at the grocery store. Did he pick it up from a vaccinated child or an unvaccinated child? Or a vaccinated adult with waning immunity? Who knows......they will never know.

I apologize for getting away from your original question/concern, OP. I understand you are vaccinating, just on your own schedule. We did the same (delaying a few, and doing "shots only" visits); I brought in my own printed schedule/plan (age and type of vaccine) -- they keep it at the front of my DDs chart and consult it as needed. Initially our ped challenged me on my reasons for doing things the way I wanted to, but once she understood I had thoroughly researched it and understood the risks/benefits for each decision, she backed off. I did sign the form when we delayed the MMR because it was a liability issue for our doctor (there was a measles outbreak here at the time). We vax on schedule after two, so it is a non-issue after that. So I personally would sign the form, or bring in your own revised form if you would feel more comfortable doing that. I imagine once the nurses/doctors see a plan in place, they will back off. If they keep pressuring you, it shouldn't deter you so long as you are comfortable with your plan, and have researched it in depth.

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Old 02-01-2013, 09:39 PM   #22
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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Yes I have read the forms, and I have even signed a few. I also have refused to follow doctor's orders on a number of occasions, and I would never call a parent abusive or neglectful for doing so. We all love and want what is best for our children, and there will always be differing views. For example, one parent sees giving an antibiotic as harmful, with greater consequence; the other sees withholding the antibiotic as harmful, with greater consequence. Same could be said for vaccines.

My main point was that the decision to not vaccinate has the potential to affect other people, whereas refusing antibiotics does not have that same potential. Sure, a vaccinated child can spread disease, and I understand vaccines are not 100% effective. I understand there are risks involved with vaccinating, just as there are risks involved with not vaccinating. Believe me, I have spent years researching this stuff. But the science tells us that there is much more vaccine preventable disease flying around when vaccinated rates drop below a certain percentage (that percentage varies from disease to disease). So yes, it is a decision you make for your child, but it is a decision that does not begin and end with your child.....there are societal implications there, as well. That said, I sincerely respect the decisions other parents make for their children, even if it differs from mine

I am glad you keep your child home when they are sick. But children can be infectious before symptoms start, and what may seem like a mild cold may be something more serious. Do you honestly keep your child quarantined for every sniffle? From the day before onset until it is completely gone?
I am sorry, I don't want to turn this into a debate. And I am trying to bite my tongue. It is just a really sensitive topic for me right now because a friend of mine has spent the last week at Childrens Hospital in Minneapolis while her 6 week old baby is fighting for his life with confirmed pertussis. They rarely left the house and have not been around anyone sick (that they know of); her son likely picked it up at his 2 mo well visit or at the grocery store. Did he pick it up from a vaccinated child or an unvaccinated child? Or a vaccinated adult with waning immunity? Who knows......they will never know.

I apologize for getting away from your original question/concern, OP. I understand you are vaccinating, just on your own schedule. We did the same (delaying a few, and doing "shots only" visits); I brought in my own printed schedule/plan (age and type of vaccine) -- they keep it at the front of my DDs chart and consult it as needed. Initially our ped challenged me on my reasons for doing things the way I wanted to, but once she understood I had thoroughly researched it and understood the risks/benefits for each decision, she backed off. I did sign the form when we delayed the MMR because it was a liability issue for our doctor (there was a measles outbreak here at the time). We vax on schedule after two, so it is a non-issue after that. So I personally would sign the form, or bring in your own revised form if you would feel more comfortable doing that. I imagine once the nurses/doctors see a plan in place, they will back off. If they keep pressuring you, it shouldn't deter you so long as you are comfortable with your plan, and have researched it in depth.
Antibiotics, and their use/over-use/inappropriate use is a HUGE societal issue. The superbugs that are circulating as a result are incredibly scary. I do place "blame" on the doctors who prescribe them for viral infections, as well as the parents who turn to them every time their child gets "sick" for the creation of these superbugs. So yes, antibiotic use is (or at least is NOW) a major issue that is effecting other people - not just those who use them.

As for the blame that a lot of parents place on non-vaxers for spreading vaccine-preventable diseases, well that's simply not true or fair. Something like 90% of all the cases of pertussis in Vermont were fully vaccinated? Anyway, we could argue it all day but simply because someone gets a vaccine preventable disease does not mean that an unvaccinated person is to blame, or even a huge group of unvaccinated people. Vaccines are not anywhere near 100% effective, and unfortunately the majority of people who vaccinate believe that they cannot spread the diseases for which they have vaccinated, which leads to parents dragging their pertussis-infected kids around town, spreading the love, all the while "immune" to the idea that they are putting tiny babies at risk. People will continue to die from vaccine-preventable disease for as long as the human race exists. I know that is a cold thought in today's age of great medical advancements, but it's true. So sorry for your friend's LO. but please don't blame the non-vaxers - the baby could have contracted it from literally anyone, and given the vaccine's poor efficacy rate and the number of people who are vaccinated for it, chances are higher that baby contracted it from a vaccinated person than an unvaxed person.

Yes there is a potential that people can spread something before they show signs of being ill. But I do keep my kids home when they first show signs of illness, which is usually "off" behavior, before the sniffles set in. They don't get sick very often, but when they do I respect their body's need for REST. We support the natural process of their immune systems and stay pro-active with a healthy diet and lifestyle and when they get sick we support their body to help it fight off the illness - we don't attack it with immune-suppressing pharmaceuticals, which lead to those superbugs I previously mentioned. It's a different mindset than those who run their coughing kids off to the pediatrician's germ-infested waiting room every time they get sick, and its what works for us.

As for your final paragraph, that is absolutely the best way to handle the OP's situation, IMO, and I commend you for researching your decision and coming up with a game plan that works for you. I really wish more parents did that - or even knew that they could!
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:24 AM   #23
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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Old 02-02-2013, 07:26 AM   #24
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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Old 02-02-2013, 07:26 AM   #25
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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Some of those forms actually open a parent to liability because some of them state that they are risking the life of their child and others by refusing the vaccine. I have signed a few refusal forms for my kids, and they simply stated "I am refusing vaccinations". They don't have to be the long, drawn-out, liability producing forms that are common place in some pediatrician's offices - some of which are worded almost as if to say, "call DCF because I am abusing my kids". It's a vaccine, just like any other medical choice that we make for our kids. Does the doc make you sign when they recommend antibiotics and you decide to wait and see? Does the doc make you sign when they recommend cutting out dairy and you decide not to follow their advice? Doctors aren't God, they aren't cops, they aren't judges. Failing to follow their advice does not require a signature. What protects doctors from liability is proper documentation of patient care. If a parent refuses a vaccine, the doctor simply needs to note that, and it would behoove them to also inform the parent of the risks and benefits, and document that, too.
Well, it is called informed consent. The best medical science has to offer is that you are in fact potentially risking your child's life if you refuse the vaccinations. If the doctor doesn't tell you that, then she is not doing her job. Signing a form that you understand (and have been told this) simply covers the doctor's practice in the event that your child's life really does wind up at risk due to your decision.

These forms are how medical providers are proving that they informed the parent of the risks and benefits of the vaccine. It's a lot easier to protect yourself from a lawsuit if you can actually show that you gave the parent the information that their child's life could be at risk. Simplay saying that you told the parent becomes a he said/she said contest.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:27 AM   #26
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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As for the blame that a lot of parents place on non-vaxers for spreading vaccine-preventable diseases, well that's simply not true or fair. Something like 90% of all the cases of pertussis in Vermont were fully vaccinated?
First of all, I am not sure where you get this stat. But ultimately, it is a meaningless statistic. Somehow no matter how many times posters here explain how statistics work, numbers like this get thrown out as if they prove something. However, on their own, they don't. There are tons of really well worded explanations on the value of statistics in tracking VPD in other vaccination threads. Several other posters are excellent at educating on how to apply meaningful statistics in vaccination discussions.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:32 AM   #27
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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Our doc doesn't ask us to sign anything. I'd talk to the doc at the 2 year.

The weird thing about these forms is that they should be asking you to sign and making disclosures when you get a vax. It's absolutely your right not to vax. Unfortunately it's also your doc's right not to see you.
They do.

Every time you vaccinate, you should receive a form informing you of the risks of vaccination, who should not be vaccinated and what to watch out for in terms of adverse and expected side effects. Every time my children receive a vaccine, I receive a copy of the paperwork and sign a form agreeing to the vaccination. - Again, informed consent.

Vaccination isn't just an individual medical treatment. It is a public health issue. Agree with or not, vaccination is of particular importance to the larger community.
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:53 PM   #28
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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Well, it is called informed consent. The best medical science has to offer is that you are in fact potentially risking your child's life if you refuse the vaccinations. If the doctor doesn't tell you that, then she is not doing her job. Signing a form that you understand (and have been told this) simply covers the doctor's practice in the event that your child's life really does wind up at risk due to your decision.

These forms are how medical providers are proving that they informed the parent of the risks and benefits of the vaccine. It's a lot easier to protect yourself from a lawsuit if you can actually show that you gave the parent the information that their child's life could be at risk. Simplay saying that you told the parent becomes a he said/she said contest.
Informed consent is required when consenting to a procedure, not when declining it. The best medical science has to offer shows that putting a vaccine into my child's body could kill them, therefore I choose not to put their life at risk by consenting to vaccinations. If the doctor doesn't tell you that, then he or she is not doing their job. The OP is talking about REFUSING vaccines, not consenting to them.
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Old 02-02-2013, 03:30 PM   #29
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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- Originally Posted by Green Decals View Post
As for the blame that a lot of parents place on non-vaxers for spreading vaccine-preventable diseases, well that's simply not true or fair. Something like 90% of all the cases of pertussis in Vermont were fully vaccinated?-

First of all, I am not sure where you get this stat. But ultimately, it is a meaningless statistic. Somehow no matter how many times posters here explain how statistics work, numbers like this get thrown out as if they prove something. However, on their own, they don't. There are tons of really well worded explanations on the value of statistics in tracking VPD in other vaccination threads. Several other posters are excellent at educating on how to apply meaningful statistics in vaccination discussions.
I think it's interesting this thread just came about because there is an article in the Discovery Magazine I just received, titled "The Broken Vaccine-Whooping cough is on the rise, exposing a worrisome trend: The vaccine that holds it in check is losing its potency, and nobody is sure why." It's reporting on a growing trend of worry in the mainstream medical community about DTAP and why its not working. Green Decals may not have been posting a stat that proves her point that the DTaP vax doesn't work that great, but she is correct none the less. I realize this isn't a quote to an actual research study (though they may not have had time to get a formal study done yet or I may have missed it.) but the article stated that during the 2010 epidemic in California...."whooping cough rates were not significantly different in vaccinated, unvaccinated and undervaccinated children between the ages of 8 and 12."

There have been other recent articles in large mainstream science magazines that have stated much the same. They have come out and specifically stated that they have been seeing more and more WC cases and that it is NOT to be blamed on the unvax'ed kids/adults but rather the vax that doesn't work well and they are scrambling to come up with something else.

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Well, it is called informed consent.
Doesn't true informed consent work both ways? Listing benefits and risks? Forms like the OP was probably asked to sign is not informed consent.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:47 PM   #30
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Re: Refusal to Vaccinate Form

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First of all, I am not sure where you get this stat. But ultimately, it is a meaningless statistic. Somehow no matter how many times posters here explain how statistics work, numbers like this get thrown out as if they prove something. However, on their own, they don't. There are tons of really well worded explanations on the value of statistics in tracking VPD in other vaccination threads. Several other posters are excellent at educating on how to apply meaningful statistics in vaccination discussions.
You can go look up the actual statistics if you want but it is irrelevant. Vaccines are not a guarantee of immunity, and pertussis in particular has a horrible rate of effectiveness. How many people died from the pertussis vaccine before they realized it needed to be changed to make it safer? How many people have died from pertussis since, because the vaccine isn't effective? Few people grasp the very basic concept that PEOPLE DIE - IT HAPPENS. But, but, but.... Its all those wacky parents who don't vaccinate! Blame them, it's all THEIR fault!
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