View Poll Results: Would you use donor milk from a mother who smokes cigarettes?
Yes! Breast milk is that important 14 11.20%
No! Cigarettes are that dangerous 91 72.80%
I would never use donor milk 16 12.80%
Other 4 3.20%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-12-2013, 01:45 PM   #51
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Re: If you coulodn't breastfeed your baby

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Originally Posted by Kätzchen View Post
Right. This is why I would question it. It is INCREDIBLY rare for a woman to not make enough milk. I would want to know why. I have very close ties to an amazing mama whose daughter was born a month after my first. She had hypoplasia and couldn't provide enough milk. I understand the horrors of the weight loss and and ftt. I pumped and provided 100% of that sweet baby's supplementary milk for two and a half years. I would gladly do anything in my powers to help another truly struggling mother provide breastmilk.

I say all of this as a mother who would not give up breastfeeding for anything. I did the bleeding/skin loss, awful pain, being admitted for serious mastitis, and pumping every two hours for four years, only to continue by choice. As someone who dealt with a very serious and life threatening feeding and swallowing disorder, severe ppd, while never successfully nursing my first baby. Yup. Breastmilk is very, extremely important to me.
I apologize for assuming you hadn't been through hell. I just couldn't fathom someone who had struggled making such a careless, hurtful comment. I read somewhere that sometimes women who struggle to breastfeed can be worse and more judgmental than women who it just comes to easily simply because they struggled and fought so hard. I doubted it because for me it gave me an understanding and empathy and right now I am still breastfeeding my DD. I don't blame anyone who decides at some point that for their mental health it's time to give up. That instead of pumping every two hours they are going to cuddle their child, instead of crying everytime they nurse they are going to love on them as they feed them formula.

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Because asking if everyone is on the rag is much more mature?

And yes, the admittedly off topic question of why a human being unable to breastfeed would be able to get pregnant IS a douche baggy question. And that was how her question appears. Why the ability to get pregnant and not the ability to provide milk. As if they go hand in hand in a way where you simply cannot, should not, have one without the other. Maybe it was worded improperly and not what she meant, maybe interpreted incorrectly, but questioning why someone that can't breastfeed should even be able to get pregnant is a douche bag move, and I can promise you some took it that way.

Asking about being unable to bf in general, not so much a jerk move. But even then interjecting it into the conversation when it's pointless just makes it seem like annoying and overbearing agenda pushing, and mamas don't dig that if they're on a different agenda.

So wither way, /shrug

ETA: Not that everyone should tiptoe simply because some are on edge about BF/FF, but people are going to get touchy. It can't be helped. One person called her a douche bag, that's hardly everyone attacking her /dramaticchipmonk

Personally, idgaf. I just found finger pointing for immaturity while sounding like a dramatic teenager to be amusing.

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Her comment was inflammatory and insensitive IMO.

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I would just like to point out the distinction here; Kätzchen stated that its incredibly rare for a woman to not make enough milk. She wasn't saying that its incredibly rare for a woman not to be able to breast feed at all.... which is true most women make milk in some quantity. Many many many women struggle with poor milk supply for a gazillion reasons. Why else would we have threads constantly asking about supplements and getting supply back and drying up unexpectedly? For the record, (because apparently its important around here) I breastfed both of my kids.

I've had enough of this lactivist 'tude that so many people throw on. So I'm going to call people on it, especially when they are throwing down random unfounded statements in CAPS. It discourages woman who struggle, tells them that there is something wrong with them and makes them feel like failures.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:47 PM   #52
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Re: If you coulodn't breastfeed your baby

There are a hundred reasons why a woman cannot breastfeed in her situation. Lack of support, lack of time to get a breastfeeding relationship started, IGT, incorrect info, low supply, and on and on and on. I couldn't BF my first very long because everyone I talked to said things were fine, yet I was in so much pain I was going blind every time I latched her on. Literal toe curling, blindness inducing, having to pant through it so I wouldn't scream and scare my child pain. I finally couldn't hack it anymore. The second go around I amassed people who knew what the heck they were talking about around me and what few small issues we had at the get go were smoothed out, and we're now in the 11th month of nursing. My story is not unique. That said, my oldest thrived on formula and they come up with new horrors that are in cigarette smoke every single day. I wouldn't expose my child to smoke or nicotene, so I'd go with formula.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:14 PM   #53
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Re: If you coulodn't breastfeed your baby

I would never use donor milk. It costs too much, there's no oversight over what the donors eat/drink/induldge in, and quite honestly, it's weird to me. That doesn't mean that I think people who use it are weird, just that I am weirded out by the idea of donor breastmilk.

After having spent 5 days in Riley Children's Hospital a month ago with my then 4 month old son because he lost 3lbs in 2 months because he was not getting enough breastmilk after I FOUGHT HARD to get him back to the breast exclusively, I have absolutely switched him over to 100% formula without guilt.

Is it weird that I was able to exclusively BF my 3rd child with absolutely NO issues, until we weaned at right around a year old, and yet couldn't produce enough to do the same with my 4th? Maybe. There's absolutely no reason to believe I am among that supposedly very low percentage of woman who can't BF. And yet, here we are, or rather, there we were. My body has absolutely no problem carrying children to term-4 full term births, no complications, never had a miscarriage. Yet, at least once, probably twice, I was NOT able to produce enough milk for my child to grow properly. It's not worth it to try to figure out why, and I am not sure there is an explanation. I did nothing different in terms of supply and demand, sleeping arrangements, etc. In fact, with #3, I went back to work, and did not with #4.

So, yes, formula over donor milk. BFing is just not worth all that hassle. I BFd for cost and convenience. A 5 day stay in the hospital is neither cheap nor convenient.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:21 PM   #54
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Re: If you coulodn't breastfeed your baby

Each of us has our own journey in parenting our kids. Carrying a child does not automatically mean that you will be able to breastfeed. That inability may be rare, but not unheard of. Just like for some, even carrying a child is an impossibility. Should it be? In an ideal world, of course not. But some find that it is a sad reality. We should all approach this subject with a little more care. Question your own biological functions, but none of us have any business questioning the OP's, unless she invites us to. And she didn't. She is only soliciting opinions.

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*snip* ...if for some reason I was unable to provide their milk, I would choose an organic formula over a smokers milk. Cigarettes disgust me and the thought of those chemical entering my baby makes me sick.

On a side note, I wish that the hard core "lactivists" could comprehend that all of the judging and negativity doesn't help anyone. If Anything, it pushes those mamas who are on the fence or wanting to use formula away. Positively promoting and educating is a much more effective and kind way of getting your opinion/facts heard. Mothering is hard enough as it is without judging and hurting others.
Sadly, this is the choice that I had to make, too. There are such things as milk banks, where they do make efforts to screen their donors and clean the milk, but they are few and far between, and so expensive that most people are unable to even consider it. (Yes, more expensive than using formula!) I am a huge supporter of breastfeeding, but the effects of smoking (first hand, second hand, third hand, in breastmilk, on clothes/bottles/bags) are well documented and potentially far more damaging than the effects of formula.
I had a lovely consultant who was very understanding about my struggles, but yes, many lactation activists need a course in common courtesy and empathy.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:30 PM   #55
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I would choose a smokers bm over formula any day. Imo, the bigger issue with a smoking bfer would be the second hand smoke. The crappy chemicals that get passed through bm are alot less than the crappy chemicals in formula

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Old 03-12-2013, 03:14 PM   #56
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Re: If you coulodn't breastfeed your baby

I have to add that, I think we should all give this mama some credit for even considering donor milk. The fact that she is even thinking about it is a pretty good clue that she doesn't take infant feeding lightly, and has probably put a lot of thought into what is best for her child. (Maybe because she is facing a struggle and could use some support?) Pretty good bet that the last thing she needs is random people on DS questioning why she is even asking.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:32 PM   #57
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Real quick here, I wanted to say I did NOT mean mothers that can not make milk shouldn't carry babies or anything like that. I meant I would wonder why I couldn't, as in, I would want a proper diagnosis, rather than just accept it. I'm not too great at translations and often misconstrue what I am trying to state.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:00 PM   #58
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And I wanted to apologize for my comment too. It was just really uncalled for. Ill post more later but I didn't mean to call you that. There is douche baggery out there but in this case I may have misjudged it.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:01 PM   #59
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Re: If you coulodn't breastfeed your baby

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Originally Posted by Kätzchen View Post
Real quick here, I wanted to say I did NOT mean mothers that can not make milk shouldn't carry babies or anything like that. I meant I would wonder why I couldn't, as in, I would want a proper diagnosis, rather than just accept it. I'm not too great at translations and often misconstrue what I am trying to state.
I believe that you didn't mean to offend, Katzchen, but, as you can see, this is a very hot issue for us here in the states. I understand what you were saying, but please consider that, by the time someone gets to the point of considering donor milk, she has probably already thought things through quite a bit. She has likely already confirmed her level of breastfeeding ability, and probably wouldn't be considering donor milk if she wasn't sure she couldn't do it herself. This can be a very painful process physically and emotionally (pain that I know you are familiar with), so even innocently suggesting that she might not know what she is doing comes across as very hurtful, both to her, and to other moms who have been there.
Also, you should know that we don't have nearly the amount of support for natural parenting that you do in Europe. (My sister is a doc in Holland and we talk about this stuff.) You have more available resources at your disposal for support and education, while here, our natural parenting resources have to fight for every inch of space (including web space) that they can get.
In other words, someone who thinks they are at the end of their rope might actually have more options than they believe they do. (Which, I think, is what you were trying to say, correct?) However, there are some women who truly, honestly, despite all attempts, are unable to breastfeed. In hindsight, it would have been better for you to simply share your breastfeeding journey, and offer some resources for her to consider, rather than making a statement that, unfortunately, came across as critical.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:07 PM   #60
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Re: If you coulodn't breastfeed your baby

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And I wanted to apologize for my comment too. It was just really uncalled for. Ill post more later but I didn't mean to call you that. There is *********gery out there but in this case I may have misjudged it.
Takes a lot of guts to apologize publicly, online.
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