A circ ?, especially for Jewish parents and those with both circ'd and intact sons

[Reetzi]

I'm always surprised by people, on both sides, who say they've had to defend their decision. We have 4 boys together and I can honestly say that I have never once had someone I knew, family/friends/strangers, ask if our boys were circ'd. I find it beyond weird that anyone would care about the state of my kid's penis (aside from the baby because he has hypospadias and I'd expect people to care about him having surgery).

[elioraimmanuel]

Proverbs 14:12 NIV
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Speaking from a faith perspective you are an observant Jew. God does not command us to do things that are not for our best benefit. I know that not circing seems right to man, but God says differently. I believe that those things that God commands for spiritual reasons also have very pratical applications, many of which I've had to live before accepting them.

Both of my sons are circ'd. However, my DH is not. I worked for years with adult circ'd and uncirc'd males, 1st as an aide...doing all hygiene care and then as an RN doing hygiene and medical care.

Anecdotally, my son's are healthy and have never had circ issues, or urinary tract issues.

However, I have worked with many men who have had difficulty because of not being circ'd. Adhesions in an adult male are horrific. I've cared for men who have had years of chronic UTI's, penile cancer, foul odors, and diabetes. Having to have a circ at 65 because of diabetes is horrible.

Enter into the discussion the "teach him to be clean" rule. Well, teenage boys are not quite that fastideous. Attempting to get them to shower daily can be a challenge in and of itself. Older men will lean this way, also. If you add in physical immobility, a stroke, depression etc things can get very, very ugly.

My DH is and always has been a clean freak about everything. However, at age 21 he had adhesions and they are common. He had to have surgery and now had permanent scarring that effects both of us. Thank God he is so clean. It takes very little time for odor and smegma to build up...think of how body odor builds up quickly.

Considering the sexual aspect of things. What about oral sex? I'm thinking that you want your son to marry a Jewish woman? How would this effect his marriage, his faith, his covenant with God? If your son chooses not to be as observant as you and chooses the way of the world. His chances of getting HPV, Aids and any other STD, along with penile cancer, greatly increase.

I've been present at circ's. I cared for many circ's baby boys. I have never seen mutilation and most of the time there isn't any crying. However, I have personally experienced the consequences of not circing.

I know that I am a dissenter. I choose to follow God's commands because I fully trust Him. He has never failed me and He truly knows what is best for me, my children, my family. This is not a matter of "feelings" for us, it is a matter of faith.

I highly suggest that you fast and pray about this. I also suggest this book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/re.../dp/080075719X

I'm praying that you follow God's will for your life and for the lives of your family.

[Fairycat]

Originally Posted by elioraimmanuel Proverbs 14:12 NIV There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Speaking from a faith perspective you are an observant Jew. God does not command us to do things that are not for our best benefit. I know that not circing seems right to man, but God says differently. I believe that those things that God commands for spiritual reasons also have very pratical applications, many of which I've had to live before accepting them. Both of my sons are circ'd. However, my DH is not. I worked for years with adult circ'd and uncirc'd males, 1st as an aide...doing all hygiene care and then as an RN doing hygiene and medical care. Anecdotally, my son's are healthy and have never had circ issues, or urinary tract issues. However, I have worked with many men who have had difficulty because of not being circ'd. Adhesions in an adult male are horrific. I've cared for men who have had years of chronic UTI's, penile cancer, foul odors, and diabetes. Having to have a circ at 65 because of diabetes is horrible. Enter into the discussion the "teach him to be clean" rule. Well, teenage boys are not quite that fastideous. Attempting to get them to shower daily can be a challenge in and of itself. Older men will lean this way, also. If you add in physical immobility, a stroke, depression etc things can get very, very ugly. My DH is and always has been a clean freak about everything. However, at age 21 he had adhesions and they are common. He had to have surgery and now had permanent scarring that effects both of us. Thank God he is so clean. It takes very little time for odor and smegma to build up...think of how body odor builds up quickly. Considering the sexual aspect of things. What about oral sex? I'm thinking that you want your son to marry a Jewish woman? How would this effect his marriage, his faith, his covenant with God? If your son chooses not to be as observant as you and chooses the way of the world. His chances of getting HPV, Aids and any other STD, along with penile cancer, greatly increase. I've been present at circ's. I cared for many circ's baby boys. I have never seen mutilation and most of the time there isn't any crying. However, I have personally experienced the consequences of not circing. I know that I am a dissenter. I choose to follow God's commands because I fully trust Him. He has never failed me and He truly knows what is best for me, my children, my family. This is not a matter of "feelings" for us, it is a matter of faith. I highly suggest that you fast and pray about this. I also suggest this book. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/re.../dp/080075719X I'm praying that you follow God's will for your life and for the lives of your family.

Since you appear to be Christian and not Jewish, you actually should read that the bible specifically refers to not circing as correct.

1 Corinthians 12:18 (NIV)
"But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. "

Romans 2:25-29 (New American Standard Bible)
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh . 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men , but from God .

Galatians 5:1-4 (NIV)
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Circumcision...ircumcisizing-

If you look more you will see that Christians feel into the trap that told us Circumcising would proctect men from masterbation. There is no biblical decree for any Christians to circ.

[THBVsMama]

Originally Posted by elioraimmanuel Proverbs 14:12 NIV There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Speaking from a faith perspective you are an observant Jew. God does not command us to do things that are not for our best benefit. I know that not circing seems right to man, but God says differently. I believe that those things that God commands for spiritual reasons also have very pratical applications, many of which I've had to live before accepting them. We no longer are required to follow the laws of the Old Testament, & there are quite a few verses in the New Testament that preach against circumcision. 1 Cor. 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts." Gal. 5:2-6"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts if faith expressing itself through love." Gal. 6:12-15 "Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation." Both of my sons are circ'd. However, my DH is not. I worked for years with adult circ'd and uncirc'd males, 1st as an aide...doing all hygiene care and then as an RN doing hygiene and medical care. Anecdotally, my son's are healthy and have never had circ issues, or urinary tract issues. However, I have worked with many men who have had difficulty because of not being circ'd. Adhesions in an adult male are horrific. I've cared for men who have had years of chronic UTI's, penile cancer, foul odors, and diabetes. Having to have a circ at 65 because of diabetes is horrible. Enter into the discussion the "teach him to be clean" rule. Well, teenage boys are not quite that fastideous. Attempting to get them to shower daily can be a challenge in and of itself. Older men will lean this way, also. If you add in physical immobility, a stroke, depression etc things can get very, very ugly. What about how these older men were cleaned as babies and young children? Were they retracted by their mother/father for each cleaning? I bet they were, as most pediatricians used to advise (& many still do). More recent studies indicate that this is the absolute worst thing a parent can do to their child's intact penis. Forced/premature retraction tear the fused foreskin from the glans and this is what causes adhesions, which in turn lead to infections. But proper/improper care aside, an older child and an older man receive proper anesthetic and pain management for after the procedure. What do newborns receive? At best a local anesthetic? What about for the pain afterwards? I know for a fact that the hospital I deliver at administers no more than a topical anesthetic. My DH is and always has been a clean freak about everything. However, at age 21 he had adhesions and they are common. He had to have surgery and now had permanent scarring that effects both of us. Thank God he is so clean. It takes very little time for odor and smegma to build up...think of how body odor builds up quickly. Considering the sexual aspect of things. What about oral sex? I'm thinking that you want your son to marry a Jewish woman? How would this effect his marriage, his faith, his covenant with God? If your son chooses not to be as observant as you and chooses the way of the world. His chances of getting HPV, Aids and any other STD, along with penile cancer, greatly increase. So, we should put our newborns under cosmetic surgery for their future wife's sake? America has one of the highest rates of circumcision for our current generation. Has that halted the transmission of AIDS here? Teaching safe sex is a much better guarantee. I've been present at circ's. I cared for many circ's baby boys. I have never seen mutilation and most of the time there isn't any crying. However, I have personally experienced the consequences of not circing. I know that I am a dissenter. I choose to follow God's commands because I fully trust Him. He has never failed me and He truly knows what is best for me, my children, my family. This is not a matter of "feelings" for us, it is a matter of faith. My verses above. I highly suggest that you fast and pray about this. I also suggest this book. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/re.../dp/080075719X I'm praying that you follow God's will for your life and for the lives of your family.

.

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by elioraimmanuel However, I have worked with many men who have had difficulty because of not being circ'd. Adhesions in an adult male are horrific. I've cared for men who have had years of chronic UTI's, penile cancer, foul odors, and diabetes. Having to have a circ at 65 because of diabetes is horrible.

Adhesions happen in circ'd infants all. the. time. Furthermore, it's not surprising that elderly men have issues, considering all of the misinformation about how to properly care about the foreskin, that has been doled out in the past. Also, foul odors aren't exclusive to intact male genitalia.

Originally Posted by elioraimmanuel My DH is and always has been a clean freak about everything. However, at age 21 he had adhesions and they are common. He had to have surgery and now had permanent scarring that effects both of us. Thank God he is so clean. It takes very little time for odor and smegma to build up...think of how body odor builds up quickly.

His adhesions were likely due to pulling the skin back before it separated on it's own...just an educated guess of course. As to the bolded, nothing that warm water can't take care of. FTR, my son has gone 3 days without a shower...filthy little bugger...and there was no foul odor emanating from his body. Well...his scalp stunk.

Originally Posted by elioraimmanuel His chances of getting HPV, Aids and any other STD, along with penile cancer, greatly increase.

ALL men have a greater chance of getting breast cancer, then penile cancer. The chances of an intact man contracting HPV, AIDS, or other STDs over a cut man are so slight it's insignificant. They do not "greatly" increase.

Originally Posted by elioraimmanuel However, I have personally experienced the consequences of not circing.

How about all of the mom's on DS that have spoken about heir experience with their son's botched circumcisions? What about all of the infants that end up with revisions of their circs, because of adhesions and other "minor" complications? What about the infants that die every year from their circumcision? What about the infants that end up with hidden penis because too much skin was removed? How about the adult men who suffer from adhesions, bridges, hidden penis, tight erections, and webbed penis (when so much skin is removed that their scrotum stretches out with the erect penis, causing a large web between the glans and the shaft)? MANY men and women have experienced the consequences of CIRCING.

[THBVsMama]

Originally Posted by frenchie How about all of the mom's on DS that have spoken about heir experience with their son's botched circumcisions? What about all of the infants that end up with revisions of their circs, because of adhesions and other "minor" complications? What about the infants that die every year from their circumcision? What about the infants that end up with hidden penis because too much skin was removed? How about the adult men who suffer from adhesions, bridges, hidden penis, tight erections, and webbed penis (when so much skin is removed that their scrotum stretches out with the erect penis, causing a large web between the glans and the shaft)? MANY men and women have experienced the consequences of CIRCING.

:raises hand for my son:

[elioraimmanuel]

Thank you Heather and THBVsMama for telling me what I believe and for telling me how God has convicted my heart.

Paul tells the Corinthians that it is not circumcision, which gives us salvation. Gentiles need not be circumcised in order to enter God's covenant relationship. Paul is also speaking of the members of the body....a hand, a foot and eye.

This Daddy is Jewish. I was addressing him and speaking of how God has convicted me and shown me.

Numbers 23:19 NIV
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

1 Samuel 15:29 NIV
He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

Matthew 5:17 NIV
[The Fulfillment of the Law] "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Malachi 3:6 KJV
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed .

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient : all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

By teaching cleanliness, I didn't mean forcible retraction. I meant cleanliness after the foreskin retracts. By circumcision I also mean more in line with the Bris and not with the complete circs done in today's hospitals.

I wrote to discuss my my belief, my 1st hand experience and not to debate or get flamed. Those of you who tell me it's wrong are also telling me that my God is wrong, that He has changed His mind. I, in Christ, have the freedom to choose that which He has shown me to be beneficial. I have done so for my boys. It took a long time to come to this place, a lot of Bible study, Greek/Hebrew and use of the cultural contexts of the Biblical times.

I experience true freedom, peace and joy in my household. We choose to follow the command to circ, along with other commands that have been to our benefit mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually. We have done so because of prayer, Bible study and very, very personal experiences, which I have shared with this Daddy.

I see a lot of what the world says. Yes, circing does decrease the risks of infection, complications, STD transmission. Safe sex is a lie. There is no such thing outside the bounds of the pure marriage bed. We do not see circing as cosmetic, if you do, that is fine. Yes, I do think of my future daughter-in-laws and grandchildren. I live, daily, with the complications of not circing.

Originally Posted by Fairycat Since you appear to be Christian and not Jewish, you actually should read that the bible specifically refers to not circing as correct. 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NIV) "But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. " Romans 2:25-29 (New American Standard Bible) 25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh . 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men , but from God . Galatians 5:1-4 (NIV) 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. http://hubpages.com/hub/Circumcision...ircumcisizing- If you look more you will see that Christians feel into the trap that told us Circumcising would proctect men from masterbation. There is no biblical decree for any Christians to circ.

[Dmpmercury]

The risk of UTIS is really low in males. Even if there was an increased risk which the studythat say there is has MAJOR flaws including discharge instructions from the hospital that said to retract and use soap. More girls have UTIs than boys regardless of circumcism status. The lifetime risk of penile cancer is also extremely low. It is a rare cancer. It more association with phimosis, cigarette smoking and sexual contact than it is circumcism status. The AAP has made statements on both UTIs and penile cancer stating that the risk was small and it is not a reason to circumcise. Penile cancer is so rare that just as many men die from circumcism as they do from penile cancer. You don't hear of major issues with these things in Europe because they aren't major issues.

They HIv studies also have flaws and the STD stuff is false. More men in the US have HIV than in Europe and we are the ones that circumcise. It is way less costly to educate people and for them to use condoms than it is to circumcise. There is only a slight increase IF the studies are true. There have been recent studies that dispute the results of the 3 studies that have ben getting press. The studies were only very short term, had a high drop out rate and they had access to free condoms and medical advice. That doesn't usually pan out in real world situations. They were done in better medical conditions that exist in Africa where the complication rate is very high. The STD stuff has not panned out in studies and there are a few small studies that show the opposite that they are more common in circumcised males.

A lot of males were given bad advice to retract and clean before they were retractable but intact penis are not a major source of infection. It actually provides protection against infection to the glands. You don't have to do much to clean. All you have to do is wash it off with water. It isn't complicated any more than it is for women. If you have adhesions from circumcism that is much harder to clean. Smegma is normal.

I don't know much about the scriptures but I do know that the way it was done in the past was just a small slit and not the removal of the foreskin like it is done today.

There is no complications from not circumcising but there is from circumcising. I don't see women all over the world having issues with there men's penis. They look the same during arousal. I actually am sad at all the nerve endings and sensation that is lost and the fact that sex is rougher with circumcism than with the natural gliding motion the circumcism provides. Then there is the fact that the glands get hardened and it loses it moisture and lubricating properties. Lots of sensation is lost and it can lead to many issues. It is no wonder that US studies show women have such a hard time achieving orgasm from just intercourse alone. It is because a vital part of the picture is missing. When our boys grow up being intact won't be against the mainstream anymore so I don't see how it would be a problem. It will no longer be all we know. Right now intact boys are the majority again.

[madscientistsa]

My older 2 boys are circ'd, my youngest is not. The conversations has never come up, but when it does, I just plan to tell my older ones that when they were born I thought circumcision was best for them, but then I researched and decided it wasn't, and we should always do what we think is best at the time.

[Fairycat]

Originally Posted by elioraimmanuel Thank you Heather and THBVsMama for telling me what I believe and for telling me how God has convicted my heart. Paul tells the Corinthians that it is not circumcision, which gives us salvation. Gentiles need not be circumcised in order to enter God's covenant relationship. Paul is also speaking of the members of the body....a hand, a foot and eye. This Daddy is Jewish. I was addressing him and speaking of how God has convicted me and shown me. Numbers 23:19 NIV God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? 1 Samuel 15:29 NIV He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind." Matthew 5:17 NIV [The Fulfillment of the Law] "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Malachi 3:6 KJV For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed . 1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient : all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. By teaching cleanliness, I didn't mean forcible retraction. I meant cleanliness after the foreskin retracts. By circumcision I also mean more in line with the Bris and not with the complete circs done in today's hospitals. I wrote to discuss my my belief, my 1st hand experience and not to debate or get flamed. Those of you who tell me it's wrong are also telling me that my God is wrong, that He has changed His mind. I, in Christ, have the freedom to choose that which He has shown me to be beneficial. I have done so for my boys. It took a long time to come to this place, a lot of Bible study, Greek/Hebrew and use of the cultural contexts of the Biblical times. I experience true freedom, peace and joy in my household. We choose to follow the command to circ, along with other commands that have been to our benefit mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually. We have done so because of prayer, Bible study and very, very personal experiences, which I have shared with this Daddy. I see a lot of what the world says. Yes, circing does decrease the risks of infection, complications, STD transmission. Safe sex is a lie. There is no such thing outside the bounds of the pure marriage bed. We do not see circing as cosmetic, if you do, that is fine. Yes, I do think of my future daughter-in-laws and grandchildren. I live, daily, with the complications of not circing.

I am in no way flaming you, what I am saying is that if you believe the bible in its entireity, then your scriptures would be just a part of what the bible says. For many Christians they use all the scriptures and in the NT at least it shows that Circumcision is not required for Christians. Some might argue that while not requried it is not always banned, so you can still be right, were a Christian who believes the Scriptures I quoted can also believe that since God does not require it they can chose to not do it.

Personally I stand by the thought that God says that he created the body perfectly in his image, so we shouldn't hack bits off. That is my opinion. you have yours, I know yours isn't changing, but getting the Scriptures out does open the eyes of other Christians, and I think that is good.

All the best to you!

Another good site for Christians, they also have a Jewish section as well;
http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/christian.html

Phillipians 3:1-11
Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you.

Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are of the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh - though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

If anyone else thinks he has confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness that comes from the law, but that which is found through faith in Christ - the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in those sufferings, becoming like him in death, an so somehow to attain to the resurrection from the dead.